Forums / TEAM Marine Depot / Corals and Coral Reefs - by Eric Borneman / Allelopathy in Filterless System / Latest Posts

RE: Allelopathy in Filterless System

Sweet Reefer — Wed, 14 May 2008 07:08:55 GMT

I am familiar with the issues of monoculture in agriculture, and it's reassuring to find that there are parallels between terrestrial systems that I am familiar with and the underwater world which at first seems very alien to a beginner.

I'm blown away at being able to receive such detailed information online from the preeminent expert in the field whose book I am simultaneously digesting. I am very grateful that you are so active in assisting hobbyists with what I imagine are many questions that have been asked before. I'm sure I speak for everyone benefiting from this forum when I say thank you!

RE: Allelopathy in Filterless System

Eric Borneman — Wed, 14 May 2008 01:45:33 GMT

Having done that, as well, I will just post some comments regarding differing philosophies. Anthony Calfo suggests that, as farmers, it is best to raise one species in one tank for maximum productivity. I can relate to that. However, farmers who raise one crop in the same plot of land often don't get continuing good yields, and the examples of say shade grown coffee and Polyface farm in Virginia effectively puts the terrestrial analogy to rest (http://www.polyfacefarms.com/principles.aspx).

Now, corals aren't plants, but having grown monotypes, and in light of some recent unpublished work showing positive species interactions between some coral species, I also doubt that monoculture is the best way. Whenever I try to raise a coral species and only that species in a tank, they grow but they do not grow the way they do in my main reef tank. There are growth issues, pest issues (algae, or predators/parasites/pathogens). Similarly, I see many mixed frag tanks where the corals do fine but they were fragged from colonies in a main tank that are thriving. The point in these cases is that the conditions of the main tank are and have been optimized by the aquarist whereas the frag tank is usually an afterthought with not as ideal water flow, light, etc. as the main tank and this outweighs the benefits of the energetic costs of competition. That said, biodiversity lends stability and reduces disease. So, I think having diversity is important in frag tanks so long as the species are relatively well tolerated, combining both aspects of minimizing local competition and reducing risks and disadvantages of monoculture - and that culture tanks are set up with as much quality and care as their display for maximum productivity.

RE: Allelopathy in Filterless System

Sweet Reefer — Tue, 13 May 2008 17:30:21 GMT

OK I think I'm getting a better idea of allelopathy. It's not that some corals are harmless or compatible with others, they are all out to get each other, just to varying degrees. Thanks!

On a side note, I wonder if thusly there would be a benefit to keeping one individual's asexual offspring per system for aquaculture purposes or if that extreme would be detrimental as I read in an article which stated that some diversity of species is needed for optimum growth and balanced system.

RE: Allelopathy in Filterless System

Eric Borneman — Tue, 13 May 2008 10:35:29 GMT

Scleractinians can't be characterized as being necessarily related to each other as the group is too diverse. Some are, some aren't, some "get along" with some other closely related species, some don't. Inevitably, the only ones that truly "get along" are fragments from the same colony - isotypes - and even same species, different colonies, can have diverse reactions from highly competitive to tolerating each other and growing together, eventually forming a nearly imperceptible non-fusion line with their skeletons and tissue. Are stony corals allelopathic - yes, and to varying degrees from quite so to not very. Species compete in different ways. Same with soft corals. Some are highly alleopathic, some not so much (generally those with other defenses, like heavy spicule incorporation or fast overgrowing strategies). Having any garden-style tank is totally possible, but it's not just corals - it's algae, sponges, and virtually all benthic life. It's all risk assessment with some choices and combinations being either known or anecdotally observed to be inherently more risky than others.

Carbon can help, and I suspect other adsorbent media. They are known to absorb complex organics like secondary metabolites. The number, types and efficiency is unknown for most marine chemical species. Skimming would potentially work especially for polar molecules, but again is unknown. Ozone could oxidize these same molecules, but could also make them more toxic as well as less toxic or completely oxidizing them. Water changes will clearly dilute them.

Yellowing compounds (humic, fulvic acids, etc.), are easily removed by carbon or ozone. Both are safe in marine tanks and anything you have heard regarding possible negative effects seems to be, in practice, relatively nonexistent.

RE: Allelopathy in Filterless System

Sweet Reefer — Wed, 07 May 2008 19:24:56 GMT

Yeah, thanks for the suggestion. I actually am not skimming either and I think thats where the ozone is incorporated, but I'm not sure. I'm trying to keep it low tech and low energy. I'll probably gravity feed a portion of the overflow through activated carbon periodically only to combat yellow and allelopathy. I decided not to worry so much about the allelopathy since nobody knows the particulars anyway and I'll just run the carbon and try to make informed decisions.

RE: Allelopathy in Filterless System

robvdv — Wed, 07 May 2008 12:55:32 GMT

Sweet Reefer, perhaps consider ozone to get rid of the yellow. It's not particularly toxic to plankton at hobby levels from what I've read (to my disappointment; I was looking for a sterilizer).

RE: Allelopathy in Filterless System

Sweet Reefer — Tue, 06 May 2008 18:08:32 GMT

Nothing against carbon, it seems inevitable anyway to get rid of yellow in the water. I just don't want to lose plankton.

RE: Allelopathy in Filterless System

Reefski — Mon, 05 May 2008 21:00:28 GMT

what do you have against using carbon?

RE: Allelopathy in Filterless System

Steven Pro — Mon, 05 May 2008 05:59:04 GMT

Sweet Reefer (5/2/2008)

I have been looking through wwm for a while, but didn't run into those areas yet. Is it just me or does that website take weeks from your life? Like you go to look something up which leads to something else then you look up from the computer and are like "what day is this?"

You should try volunteering there.

RE: Allelopathy in Filterless System

Sweet Reefer — Fri, 02 May 2008 07:23:59 GMT

Thanks a lot, very helpful! I have been looking through wwm for a while, but didn't run into those areas yet. Is it just me or does that website take weeks from your life? Like you go to look something up which leads to something else then you look up from the computer and are like "what day is this?"

RE: Allelopathy in Filterless System

desmocyte — Thu, 01 May 2008 22:45:04 GMT

Ooopps ... Part 5 should be:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cnidcompppt5.htm

RE: Allelopathy in Filterless System

desmocyte — Thu, 01 May 2008 22:43:23 GMT

Cnidarian Compatibility: On Reducing Negative Cnidarian Interactions
Bob Fenner

Part 1
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cnidcompppt.htm

Part 2
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cnidcompppt2.htm

Part 3
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cnidcomppt3.htm

Part 4
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cnidcompppt4.htm

Part 5
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cnidcomppt5.htm

HTH

RE: Allelopathy in Filterless System

Sweet Reefer — Thu, 01 May 2008 20:54:03 GMT

OK, first I admit I have not done enough research to justify asking forum questions with regard to this topic. I have focused on refugiums, hardware and initial set-up; now it's time to really nail down stocking since I don't think it's far off.

I noticed families within Scleractinia that I have already heard are toxic - notably Fungia (I actually didn't realize the "LPS" are in this order as I've read they have the potential to be as toxic as soft corals). Is it at least within the realm of the anecdotal knowledge base that I am pretty safe staying within Pocillopora and Acropora? Any other families likely to play nice with these must-haves? Thanks!

PS: I think fungia in the bottom of the lagoon tank within an "SPS" system would be awesome, but not worth it if it hurts or restricts growth of the main attraction. I assume these chemicals are large organic molecules and probably a fluidized bed carbon rig would probably go far toward eliminating most and allowing some non-ideal compatibility choices?

RE: Allelopathy in Filterless System

Sweet Reefer — Thu, 01 May 2008 19:28:57 GMT

Thanks for the reply, sweet greenhouse! I'm brand new and at first was planning on the mixed garden style until I found out corals don't really like each other all that well. I was hoping at least there was some level of relation that one could safely stick with as a rule of thumb since I'm trying to devise an ecology based filterless system and would rather not run carbon.

For example, do certain Scleractinians not get along or are they so closely related that they don't harm each other? Am I wrong in assuming carbon will hurt plankton populations? I suppose maybe the pores are too small to impact organisms larger than bacteria and maybe protists.

RE: Allelopathy in Filterless System

Steven Pro — Thu, 01 May 2008 05:09:16 GMT

I am not sure these interactions in closed systems have been studied enough to definitively say coral A is fine with coral B.

Allelopathy in Filterless System

Sweet Reefer — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:59:02 GMT

Aside from the apparent ideal of keeping a single species in a closed system with regard to minimizing allelopathy, what is the most useful level of taxonomic grouping to limit oneself to when making stocking decisions and are there any concise references of compatibility among corals? Thank you.