Forums / TEAM Marine Depot / Invertebrates; Morphology, Ecology, and Behavior – by Dr. Ron Shimek / Some kind of polychaete? / Latest Posts

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

c'est ma — Mon, 26 May 2008 19:55:13 GMT

Wow, Leslie, to the best of my knowledge I received no email notification of your reply! I was just trying to clean out my mailbox, saw some older notifications, and thought I'd check back here, just in case...So I'm sorry to say this is the first I've seen your reply!

"Hollywood welcome!"

I'm so glad to hear that "Pa" got there all right--do let me know if you ever post any pics of him anyplace publicly accessible (tho I expect there won't be any pressing need to do so...)

He was certainly a well-traveled worm, but I suppose most of your subjects are. And it is amazing how hardy these things can be.

Thanks again for all your involvement in this little incident--it's been great fun for me!

Cheers,

--Diane

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

Leslie — Wed, 21 May 2008 14:38:05 GMT

No leash, just plenty of love and 95% alcohol!

Diane - Mr. P. aurifera arrived here just fine and I immediately gave it a Hollywood welcome - red carpet and flashing camera lights. It was really quite hardy. In fact, I had to leave it alone for several days and it was still perky when I came back. It now resides in drunken splendor on my desk and will eventually be moved to a new home on aisle 1, tier 16, shelf 4 of the collection room. Many thanks - by donating him you just doubled our holdings of this species!

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

c'est ma — Sat, 17 May 2008 14:58:16 GMT

^^^ !

. . .

Leslie, did the worm get there?

--Diane

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

Ron Shimek — Sat, 17 May 2008 04:30:41 GMT

Diane,

Make a pet of him... I'll bet Leslie has "the perfect" worm leash.

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

c'est ma — Fri, 16 May 2008 10:48:45 GMT

Oh, no, Leslie, it didn't really cost that much. The fun of finding this animal and "talking" with you & Ron has been more than worth it!

I just hope he survives the trip...after innocently answering "no" to the question, "Does this package contain any liquids, hazardous materials....[etc]," I then had to watch as the clerk quickly flipped the box from side to side, affixing stickers. ...all the time hoping there'd be no telltale "slosh!" :lol:

And the poor worm was already stressed from being in a small holding container for 3 or 4 days...(I put a tiny sinking pellet in one night, thinking he might revert to scavenging if he got hungry enough, but pulled it out & changed the water the next day, as he didn't pay any attention to it and I thought it would just pollute the water...)

...But no, I don't expect you to make a pet of him.

--Diane

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

Leslie — Fri, 16 May 2008 08:15:59 GMT

Diane -- I am so looking forward to getting this guy! Again, let me know if you want help with the cost of shipping.

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

Leslie — Fri, 16 May 2008 08:07:43 GMT

Ron - your WAGs are as good as another person's PhD!

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

Ron Shimek — Fri, 16 May 2008 06:05:56 GMT

Hi,

Hmm, well, it looks like my guestimate of this being a member of the Palmyridae wasn't as bad as it might have been.

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

c'est ma — Thu, 15 May 2008 23:14:59 GMT

Leslie, I can easily imagine that you've seen so many worms in your career you don't have instant recall of every one!

Well, you're going to get a look at my guy, anyway, as I had already shipped him off before I read your post. He's supposed to arrive by noon today (Friday). Hope he's still in one piece and alive when he gets there...

Thanks for the ID! A couple of days ago I did a lot of searching on P. aurifera but could find no images or descriptions...

It's sort of reassuring to know that I didn't see the scales because they weren't there!

And yes, thanks for the clarification of the family relations. Very helpful!

(BTW--several other stunning pics at your Flickr page as well!)

Cheers,

--Diane

PS: These were a couple of refs I found:

This one says P. aurifera's in the Red Sea:

http://www.senckenberg.de/files/content/forschung/abteilung/aquazool/mev2/wehe_&_fiege.pdf

And I thought this one was interesting--see excerpt below:

http://www.mnhn.fr/museum/front/medias/publication/2557_z04n3a2.pdf

Excerpt:

Lamarck, although

originally a botanist, was appointed professor in

zoology at MNHN in 1793. A number of his

polychaete types were actually collected by

Savigny, who was one of the naturalists on

Napoléon’s campaign to Egypt in 1798. Savigny

wrote a manuscript that included these descriptions,

and which formed the basis of many of

Lamarck’s descriptions. These descriptions were

published also by Savigny in Description de

l’Égypte, but due to uncertainties relating to the

actual date of his contributions, the International

Commission on Zoological Nomenclature

(1987) took the decision that the relevant parts

were issued in 1822. Lamarck’s descriptions

thereby have priority over Savigny’s, and the former

should therefore be referred to as author of

the taxa. If considered appropriate, the specification

“Savigny in Lamarck” may be used to credit

Savigny’s input. Not many of Lamarck’s types

remain: Clymene amphistoma, Glycera unicornis,

Hermione hystrix, the aforementioned Hesione

splendida, Ophelia bicornis, Palmyra aurifera,

which was relatively recently transferred from

Chrysopetalidae to Aphroditidae by Watson

Russell (1989),

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

Leslie — Thu, 15 May 2008 12:42:42 GMT

Well, doh, I am so totally stupid sometimes. Take a look at my flickr page http://www.flickr.com/photos/86448061@N00/ I've just added 2 images that should look familiar - Palmyra aurifera from the Phoenix Islands. It was sent to me a couple of years ago. Preserved so the images aren't as nice as Diane's but you can see that it's the same thing. Double doh.....

Ron, Charlotte Watson Russell published on this: 1989 Revision of Palmyra Savigny (Polychaeta: Aphroditidae) and redescription of Palmyra aurifera. beagle, Records of the Northern Territory Museum of Arts and Sciences 6: 35-53. My hard copy is locked away thanks to renovation in my office otherwise I'd make you a copy.

Thanks Diane. Palmyra's a very odd scaleworm because it doesn't have any scales. It's been bounced around a bit. A closer look at the morphological characters have placed it in the family Aphroditidae much to many people's surprise. Aphroditidae, Polynoidae, Sigalionidae, and a few smaller families are all in the order Aphroditoidea. Does that help?

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

c'est ma — Thu, 15 May 2008 09:57:28 GMT

OK, thanks very much, Ron!! Leslie I'll get it off to you sometime today, and PM you with the details!

(Ron, if you can get back to me in time, would it help to have a bit of macro in the jar, for the worm to cling to?)

--Diane

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

Ron Shimek — Thu, 15 May 2008 08:53:32 GMT

Hi Leslie, Diane

Shipping alive... ah, yes...

Put the animal in a reasonably sized vial/jar. Fill the jar no more than 1/2 full of water. The air will provide enough oxygen for the animal to make the trip. Seal the jar well; a tight seal with vinyl electrican's tape wrapped around the cap and jar top works well. Put this in a plastic bag/Ziploc etc. Pack well in a small box. Ship by the means you choose.

Best not to tell anybody it contains living creatures. Some carriers get exercised over that and will tell you that they won't ship living animals (They don't want to be liable for their deaths).

As far as carriers and people sending me things... I have had good luck with Express Mail and Priority Mail from the USPS, as well as overnight from FedEX and UPS. DHL/Airborne kills things... don't ship livies with them.

Good luck.

Leslie, I would like to see what you find with this animal. The pattern of setae is really like nothing I could find in my litereature and I have a pretty good polychaete data base (albeit for the NE Pacific).

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

c'est ma — Wed, 14 May 2008 23:42:02 GMT

Leslie, I went to that site and discovered that it was already earmarked as one of my favorites! (Of course, I really need to organize them--I've got so many--so I had not yet stumbled upon it in my efforts to get a visual idea of what my current critter might be...)

What a wonderful project, and esp., what wonderful pictures! If those have scales, then so very well may mine!

I'm a bit confused, tho--with the jump from Aphroditidae to Polynoidae (and the other family designations in Gallery 3). Are we now talking subfamilies or something? Sorry I'm so anal......

--Diane

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

c'est ma — Wed, 14 May 2008 22:04:16 GMT

Fantastic! I love the idea of sending it live! (I only hope it stays so till I/we figure out how to do it! )

I will be checking my email to look for any help from Ron; meanwhile, I'll see if I can find other sources for shipping info...

Sure hope we can work it out!

--Diane

PS: I look forward to seeing your work at the url you included!

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

Leslie — Wed, 14 May 2008 21:51:00 GMT

[quote]c'est ma (5/14/2008)

I hate to mention this, but would you be interested in the specimen? I could put it in a vial with some isopropanol. (Or try to ship it live, if you gave me instructions. IME he's pretty hardy.)
--Diane[/quote]

YES! YESYESYESYESYESYESYES

Diane - many thanks for your kind offer. Alive would be great then I can photograph it myself. It should be shipped overnight and I'd be happy to share the cost if it's expensive.

Ron - can you advise on the best way to ship it alive? I normally deal with dead specimens so shipping techniques are probably kinda different.

Elytra = scales. They are modified dorsal cirri. By flexing the scales and the body at the same time scaleworms are able to draw fresh oxygenated water over their branchiae. Some also brood eggs under - or even inside - the scales. Elytra range from very stiff structures ornamented with various types of papillae to extremely thin, delicate, transparent membranes. I've got a couple of scaleworm pictures up at http://www.nhm.org/guana/bvi-invt/bvi-surv/worm-g03.htm which show just how transparent they are. I suspect your animal has scales like this. If not then it's an unusually large Palmyra.

I'm Leslie Harris at the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County, 900 Exposition Boulevard, Los Angeles, CA 90007. PM me with the cost & your address if you'd like some help with it.

Thanks again --

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

c'est ma — Wed, 14 May 2008 14:31:26 GMT

OK, I put the poor thing under the 'scope, and, the best I can tell, what I see under the setae, at the skin's surface, is basically the sort of segmentation I see on the ventral side, only much fainter & less pronounced. I am not seeing anything that looks like scales, but that doesn't mean they're not there and just beyond the reach of my equipment and eyes.

I tried to get some pics, aiming my point-&-shoot down the 'scope eyepiece, focusing & moving the worm around to keep it in the field with the other hand (he really starts moving with a bright light on him!)--a real goat rodeo! These are the best I got, which really are close to what I'm seeing with my eyes:

FWIW,

--Diane

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

c'est ma — Wed, 14 May 2008 13:34:42 GMT

Leslie, thank you!

To answer your question, I really can't perceive anything plate-like below the setae. (Would such scales be what are called "elytra" in some of the worm lit? When I first ran across that term I thought I'd stumbled into a Coleopteran site by mistake!)

My cam is obviously focusing on the setae rather than the surface beneath it, but it still pretty much approximates what I can see...here's a cropped shot of the back:

I'll put him under my stereomicroscope for a better look...

Meanwhile, I'm thinking I really don't want to put it back in my tank. I have nano-tanks, and the micro- (and slightly larger!) fauna are important and probably not enough to support a predator. Sigh.

I hate to mention this, but would you be interested in the specimen? I could put it in a vial with some isopropanol. (Or try to ship it live, if you gave me instructions. IME he's pretty hardy.)

--Diane

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

Ron Shimek — Wed, 14 May 2008 12:54:07 GMT

Hi Leslie,

Thanks! Very cool worm!!!

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

Leslie — Wed, 14 May 2008 12:17:37 GMT

Thanks, Ron. Palmyra is pretty good for a WAG and that was one of my first thoughts too. On the other hand, Palmyra is a very small worm, nothing like this. Diane - when you look closely do you see the edges of overlapping translucent scales on the back between the setae? I suspect it's in the genus Pontogenia in the family Aphroditidae. Unlike species of Aphrodita it lacks the felt (fine hairs) that give them the common name of sea mice. Aphroditids are carnivores and possibly scavengers if better food is lacking. They have a set of jaws and go after small worms, small crustaceans, and small molluscs. Anything larger should be safe - and they won't touch corals except perhaps to walk over them. Nice photos by the way!

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

c'est ma — Tue, 13 May 2008 19:14:33 GMT

Thanks for the info, Ron, and now I'm very glad I put "polychaete" in my subject title.

As to the Palmyridae--one of the first hits I got,

http://www.annelida.net/pc-fam.html

stated that Palmyridae was a "Monotypic family for Palmyra aurifera, now absorbed into Aphroditidae." (Note--other refs indicated differently...)

Well, I searched for images of that species, to no avail. (I liked the "palm" part of the nomenclature, in case it was from the same root as "palmate," which tends to describe the setae I'm seeing...though it might be a completely different root, I suppose!)

Meanwhile, I've been seeing lots of pics of Aphroditids--"sea mice"--and they do resemble mine, except for the unusual setae...Certainly the few ventral shots I've seen look exactly like mine...

I'd really like to know what this guy eats, as I'm more of a "give it the benefit of the doubt" type than a "nuke it just in case" person. But I've kept it out of the main tank and am afraid it may perish in my temporary holding container...

Thanks again, and I will be eagerly awaiting Leslie!

--Diane

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

Ron Shimek — Tue, 13 May 2008 15:20:30 GMT

Hi Diane,

Leslie is an honest to somebody's gawd polychaete taxonomist who regularly visits this forum and helps to identify some of the oddities we run across. She may be out in the field or busy with some othe project at the moment, but she normally responds to the "magic word" (=polychaete) relatively rapidly.

Palymyridae is just a guess. I have no confidence in it being right, it just kinda fits. It was from some old references. I tried searching the www for info and images and was just about wholly unsuccessful.

If this was up to me alone, I would have to just say it is "gorgeous and interesting polychaete" and leave it at that.

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

c'est ma — Tue, 13 May 2008 15:01:33 GMT

Thank you, Ron! I knew I could count on you to also find it beautiful!

Please pardon my ignorance, but is Leslie someone who will automatically read this thread or someone I need to seek out?

Meanwhile, I have been having fun searching the internet for Palmyridae...

--Diane

RE: Some kind of polychaete?

Ron Shimek — Tue, 13 May 2008 03:37:27 GMT

Hi Diane,

What a beautiful animal!!! Those huge tufts of dorsal (noto-) setae are spectacular.

Howsoever, it is not like any that I have ever personally examined, I will leave this one to Leslie to give the final word on.

As a WAG (wild-assed guess) it may be in a family called the Palmyridae, but as I said... Leslie will give the real answer.

Some kind of polychaete?

c'est ma — Mon, 12 May 2008 23:30:53 GMT

Found this on the bottom of a 10g tank in which new but cured LR is being held for observation. After dark, crawling very slowly through the detritus on the bottom of the tank:

It is a bit less than 1" in length (~ 15/16"). 15 more pics in the following threads, including ventral shots and a few glimpses of the head:

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?s=93052c65d309d11e9b5c4cea968c750e&showtopic=157377&pid=1635409&st

--Diane