Forums / TEAM Marine Depot / Disease, Health and Wellness - by Kelly Jedlicki / Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help / Latest Posts

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:22:29 GMT

If there is a necropsy performed, please share the results.

Again, sorry for your loss.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 10:41:43 GMT

Thanks pufferqueen.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 08:12:12 GMT

Sorry to hear about Selena.

The research that I am involved with is predatory fish/puffers that suffer from lockjaw that are fed krill. I am not aware of anyone else doing research on parasitic or bacterial infections in puffers.

Which vet did you contact about treatment? Perhaps they would be willing to do a necropsy?

Again so sorry to hear about Selena.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:22:41 GMT

Dear Pufferqueen,

I just wanted to thank you for all your help. My Selena passed away this morning. The copper treatment didn't help her. I had contacted a vet to ship her to for treatment but it was too late. If I remember right I read somewhere that you were asking for deceased puffers to do research. If you let me know how to ship her and where to ship her too, I will. I have her in the freezer right now waiting for your reply. If I'm wrong I will bury her. Please let me know either way. Thanks.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Sun, 11 May 2008 15:06:48 GMT

What dose of maracyn-2 do you use?

I used one package maracyn-2 and one gallon of water for a one hour bath.

To test any test kit: take a precise amount of saltwater (no dechlorinators added) and add the appropriate amount of copper. For example: If you are using cupramine, the directions state 1 ml per 10 gallons. I do not like to waste water or copper, so I use 1 gallon and add 0.1 ml to the water. I circulate well and then test. If the kit does not measure copper - bad kit, bad copper or wrong test kit for the copper being used.

I ran the test twice with one gallon of water in a bucket with 3 drops of cupramine. I used 2 different test kits and got the same result. I then added the amount recommended to the tank that she is in and tested her water. Her copper level is now .50. It says to treat for 14 days. This will be day one.

I will keep your posted on her progress.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Sun, 11 May 2008 06:00:48 GMT

edmlfc (5/10/2008)

Pufferqueen<

I did the maracyn2 baths one hour each night for 10 nights. It was not sucessful. She still has cloudy eyes and there has been no change in the last 10 days. I have the seachem copper test and seachem ammonia test kits. I also have the red sea copper test on hand and the cupramine. I will start the copper treatment tomorrow.

What dose of maracyn-2 do you use?

Just need to refresh:

I will use 1 gallon of water with 1 drop of cupramine to test my test kits. Is this correct?

I should keep the copper level at .50 for 14 days. Is this correct?

With any medications, follow the directions on the medication as there are many manufacturers and many have different strengths.

She is still in a 10 gallon qt and her levels are amm.0, nitrite 0, nitrate 2.5, ph 8.2. I will remove the carbon and leave the sponges in the HOB.

I am still feeding her with a syringe and I have given her Prazilpro (mixed with food for deworming, no signs of her passing any worms, it contains: Oxybispropanol (as an inert solubilizing agent) and <5% praziquantel by weight.) I mixed .5 ml of prazilpro with her food twice this week. It says to add it to the tank but not to use with other meds. After reading other forums I decided to add it to her food and feed it to her. I have read that others have had sucess with this.

I also purchased gel tek ultra cure px (containsraziquantel 0.0057%, Flubenol 0.03%, Metronidazole 0.30%). It says to feed 5 drops twice a day for 3 days. I have not tried it yet.

I have not used this product, but it couldn't hurt. The key is to get the recommended dose in daily for the duration of treatment. Subtherapeutic levels of any medication will not help and could lead to resistant strains of pathogens.

Keep us updated.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Sat, 10 May 2008 05:50:39 GMT

Pufferqueen<

Just need to refresh:

I will use 1 gallon of water with 1 drop of cupramine to test my test kits. Is this correct?

I should keep the copper level at .50 for 14 days. Is this correct?

She is still in a 10 gallon qt and her levels are amm.0, nitrite 0, nitrate 2.5, ph 8.2. I will remove the carbon and leave the sponges in the HOB.

I also purchased gel tek ultra cure px (containsraziquantel 0.0057%, Flubenol 0.03%, Metronidazole 0.30%). It says to feed 5 drops twice a day for 3 days. I have not tried it yet.

I will not have acess to a computer until late tonight and I plan to start the copper treatment tomorrow. If I don't hear from you I will wait. I will check the forum tonight and tomorrow morning for your answer. Thanks.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:20:38 GMT

The key to deworming with products such as the Jungle product is in order to get a therapeutic dose is the fish, this food should be the only food fed for several days. Often, the fish will not readily accept the food or only nibble and therefore only get a subtherapeutic dose.

I have not used Hikari's prazipro but have used praziquantel in the powder and pill form. There are many threads in this forum on praziquantel - search button in upper right corner may help some.

Here is a recent thread discussing praziquantel:
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic84787-10-1.aspx

Thanks for sharing....this can only help other puffers.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:02:50 GMT

I only used it when treating my GSP's while they were still in freshwater. I soaked their food in it and then fed them. So I would have to say oral. I never added it to their tank water.

Would the Prazipro work for her?

This is what it says:The first ready-to-use liquid concentrate praziquantel treatment for aquarium use. Controls disease conditions caused by flukes, tapeworm, flatworm, and internal parasites. Use in freshwater or marine aquariums. Offers rapid control without negatively impacting your biological filtration. May also be used as a preventive. Ingredients: Oxybispropanol (as an inert solubilizing agent) and < 5% praziquantel by weight.

Or is there something else I should have ordered? The folks on the pufferforum suggested this, and they said they have had good results with it.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 08:54:17 GMT

edmlfc (4/28/2008)

Jungle parasite clear Contains praziquantel, metronidazole, and acriflavine.

I also ordered: prazipro (should be here today) Ingredients: Oxybispropanol (as an inert solubilizing agent) and < 5% praziquantel by weight.

Acriflavine is not used to treat saltwater fish. Is the Jungle product adminstered via bath or orally?

I am a strong supporter of praziquantel for deworming.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 08:38:41 GMT

Jungle parasite clear Contains praziquantel, metronidazole, and acriflavine.

I also ordered: prazipro (should be here today) Ingredients: Oxybispropanol (as an inert solubilizing agent) and < 5% praziquantel by weight.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 08:20:47 GMT

What are the 'ingredients' in the Jungle product?

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 08:06:15 GMT

Puffer Queen (4/28/2008)

Yikes - live blood worms are a prime source of pathogens.

I found this out after I started feeding them to her. A little late. I have not fed anymore since then.

[b]Since you did the furan baths. Might consider doing another series of antibiotic baths using a different antibiotic - kanamycin or minocycline (Maracyn-2).

I have Maracyn-2 at home and I can start the baths tonight.

[b]I would hold off on the copper at present but be prepared to start if the eyes worsen.

Looked at her again this morning and her eyes are the same, they look much better than they did on the 20th. They seem to be getting better everyday.

[b]Have you dewormed this puffer?

I have not used any deworm meds on her. I do have jungle parasite clear at home that I can add to her food if necessary. I used it to deworm my GSP's.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:55:47 GMT

Yikes - live blood worms are a prime source of pathogens.

Since you did the furan baths. Might consider doing another series of antibiotic baths using a different antibiotic - kanamycin or minocycline (Maracyn-2).

I would hold off on the copper at present but be prepared to start if the eyes worsen.

Have you dewormed this puffer?

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:44:12 GMT

Yes they were alive and I did rinse them before feeding.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:30:09 GMT

Were the blood worms alive? Did you wash/rinse them before feeding?

The puffer looks slightly improved. I would recommend still treating as this is a chronic/acute stressor which can weaken a fish's immune system and leave them vulnerable to other pathogens.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 06:37:56 GMT

Just wondering if this is what may have caused her cloudy eyes:

The only thing I could get her to eat when I first got her was ghost shrimp. So I would gut load the ghost shrimp and feed them to her. After a few weeks of trying other foods someone suggested bloodworms. It took a few tries but she went for it. After the 3 rd feeding of bloodworms she started acting funny and that's when her eyes went cloudy. Is this what caused her cloudy eyes? I found out about 2-3 weeks later that you should never feed bloodworms to a saltwater fish. I changed her diet about 2 weeks ago to shrimp, mussels & clams. She is looking so good today it makes me wonder if it was the bloodworms. The bloodworms were purchased at academy, it was the only place in town that had them.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 05:36:46 GMT

Pufferqueen please tell me she is getting better: I checked on Selena this morning....I have not had any lights on her tank for about 5 days now. I have been feeding her every other day puree mussles, clams, shrimp, vitamins and garlic guard. I took a flash light this morning to have a good look at her and I could not believe my eyes. I see BLUE! Not all blue but at the very top or her bad eye I see blue. It was all white just a few days ago and now I can see the brown edge and blue at the top. I have not started the copper treatment yet, I have one test kit coming in today and another brand coming in Monday. Is it possible that she is getting better without meds? I have been praying so hard for her eyes to clear up. Here are some updated pictures of her this morning:

Today 4/26/08 Right eye (the bad one)

On 4/20/08 Right eye (the bad one)

Today 4/26/08 left eye (not as bad as right eye)

4/20/08 left eye (not as bad as right eye)

Do you think she will keep improving? I did not plan to start the copper treatment until Monday once I have both test kits but if she keeps getting better on her own I won't do it. Please let me know what you think. I am so excited and relieved! I still can't believe mye eyes! Have you ever seen a puffer with eyes so bad and covered in white that healed itself? Thanks for all your help!

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 05:19:33 GMT

Checked her water this morning

Amm 0, ph 8.4, nitrite 0, nitrate 2.5....... the copper test will be here monday, I'll do the control test once I get it and then start the treatment. Thanks again.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:04:49 GMT

Thanks for sharing. That is a valid point.

At the present, the porcupine's tank does not have any filtration - just an empty HOB filter.....so hopefully with a seeded media (sponges), the water parameter swings will stop.

Again, thanks for sharing.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

FishFan — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:16:01 GMT

Seachem has a FAQ for Cupramine you may find worth reading. The FAQ is at: http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine_faq.html One topic in the FAQ in particular may be useful to know:

"Q: I'm using Cupramine™ and my ammonia test kit is showing ammonia off the scale. What is going on?
A: Ammonia test kits can not distinguish ammonia from the amine based complex present in Cupramine™ and will therefore give a false high reading for ammonia while using Cupramine™. Our Ammonia Alert™ and MultiTest: Free & Total Ammonia™ test kit do not suffer from this problem as they utilize a gas exchange technology that can distinguish ammonia from amines."

This idiosyncrasy of Cupramine could cause a person to conclude that their filter bacteria was dead and cause considerable wasted time and stress and money trying to control false positive readings with massive water changes. Ouch!

Hope this helps.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:50:23 GMT

ok thanks, I'll keep you posted on the progress.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:39:25 GMT

Sounds good.

Just make sure not to add the carbon.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:29:14 GMT

It's in a whisper 60 hob. I have 2 sets of carbons and 2 sets of sponges in it. It has been on the tank from day 1. The tank has been saltwater for about 7 months. It should be well seeded.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:20:39 GMT

Where are the sponges in the main tank? Are they floating or are they in a filter where water is being passed through them? How long have they been in the tank?

Cupramine may slightly retard the filter but I have not personally seen any effects if the biological filter was adequately seeded/cycled for the bioload.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:15:07 GMT

Will add another filter from main tank that has sponges and carbon. Once I get the copper test I will start the copper treatment also.

One last question: Once I start treating with copper and remove the carbon will that kill the good bacteria?

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:07:12 GMT

According to Seachem, when prime is added to a tank with cupramine, the protective polymer is broken down and the copper can become toxic. The Cu+2 (cupramine) will be reduced to Cu and Cu which is 10 times more toxic then Cu+2.

I would recommend adding a cycled filter to help with controlling water parameters. Stability is the key here. Swings in water parameters adds stress and impairs the fish's ability to cope with other stressors and heal.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:51:35 GMT

Did you use any dechlorinators like prime in this tank with the copper??

I have not used any dechlorinators at all. I use ro/di water. I mix it in a 32 gallon tub for 24 hours before I put it in the tank. The readings for the saltwater in the tub are amm.0,nitrite 0, nitrate 0, ph 8.4.

Are you using any products to decrease the ammonia?

I haven't used any products to decrease ammonia. I have just been doing a water change every day (sometimes morning & evening) 75%-90% and checking her levels in the morning and evening. Also when I feed her I put her in a bowl, feed her with the syringe, then move her back to the tank and throw away the water in the bowl, so that I don't have any missed food floating around in her tank.

I ordered the red sea copper test last night. As soon as I get it in I will do the control test and try this again.

Should I use prime when I start using copper? Or should I just do 100% water changes daily and add the copper back in?

Should I be using prime for now until I start the copper treatment again?

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:02:25 GMT

April 10-April 12: on April 10 I added the 16 drops as the bottle said. Test kit showed no copper. On April 12 I added another 16 drops and still the test kit showed no copper. This is when I took her out and dosed the tank until the test kit showed copper. I had to use 8 doses or 128 drops for the test kit to show .50 copper. I then did a 100% water change and added the carbon back in the tank. Then I moved her back to the tank. While I was doing this I had her in a 5 Gallon bucket.

My cupramine bottle states to dose 1 ml per 10 gallons. For those reading that may be confused - 1 ml equals roughly 15 - 16 drops.

Did you use any dechlorinators like prime in this tank with the copper??

What has your ammonia gotten up to?? What is your pH & nitrite?

It has not gotten over a .50. Here is the test results as of this morning and before my regular morning water change:amm. .25, nitrite .25, ph 8.4, nitrate 2.5, temp 76.2

Looks like your biological filter is not able to handle the bioload. This could be contributing to the eye condition. Ammonia levels present at normal pH is toxic and can burn.

Are you using any products to decrease the ammonia?

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:28:37 GMT

I ordered the red sea copper test kit online today.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 07:12:56 GMT

Are you using Seachem Cupramine?

Yes, this is what I have.

Is this a 10 gallon tank?

Yes

Do you have access to a Seachem, Salifert or Red Sea test kit?

No, I would have to order it.

What dose of furan 2 did you use?

I used one package (for 10 gallons) in a 1 gallon bucket for 1 hour.

Can you post a recent pic?

Here is one picture of her left eye and one picture of her right eye. The orange you see in the back ground is a glove I use to hold her while feeding. After feeding I run the glove under scalding hot water to kill any bacteria left on it then air dry it.

12 days of carbon - was it in when you dosed the copper??

No I did not have any carbon in the hob when I was using copper.

When exactly did you start the copper?

What has your ammonia gotten up to?? What is your pH & nitrite?

It has not gotten over a .50. Here is the test results as of this morning and before my regular morning water change:amm. .25, nitrite .25, ph 8.4, nitrate 2.5, temp 76.2

What is in the hob filter?

Right now just carbon. When I was treating her I had nothing in the hob.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 05:38:51 GMT

1)On the first day I dosed the tank with 16 drops, then after 48 hours I dosed another 16 drops. (when I did the water change I did 100% and added the same amount of copper back in) The test was showing nothing. At this time I had no carbon in the tank.

Are you using Seachem Cupramine? Is this a 10 gallon tank?

2)Then I took her out of the qt (10 gallon tank) and dosed it until I got the copper to read .50. It took 8 doses counting the first 2 doses within the 48 hour period (16 drops each dose) total of 128 drops to get the copper to read .50. Checked the test kits and could not find any exp dates.

Do you have access to a Seachem, Salifert or Red Sea test kit?

3) I didn't want to overdose her so I emptied the tank and did a 100% water change. Did not readd copper out of fear.

4)I then added the carbon back in.

5)While I was waiting to hear from you I gave her 1 hour baths in furan 2 for 10 days in a seperate container. Her eyes are almost totaly white now. The white is under the lens not on top. Her eyes have gotten worse.

What dose of furan 2 did you use?

Can you post a recent pic?

What I am currently doing:

1) Carbon is still in her filter it has been in the filter for 12 days now. I have not changed it.

12 days of carbon - was it in when you dosed the copper?? When exactly did you start the copper?

2) Daily water changes 50%-75% to keep amm. under control.

What has your ammonia gotten up to?? What is your pH & nitrite?

3) Feeding every other day about 6cc with a syringe filled with puree: worms, shrimp, clam, vitamins and garlic guard.

4) The only thing in her tank is the hob filter, heather & theromometer. This is a 10 gallon qt tank.

What is in the hob filter?

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 11:49:28 GMT

I truely understand about the life thing. I am going through some really rough stuff right now also.

Ok here is what I did:

3) I didn't want to overdose her so I emptied the tank and did a 100% water change. Did not readd copper out of fear.

4)I then added the carbon back in.

What I am currently doing:

1) Carbon is still in her filter it has been in the filter for 12 days now. I have not changed it.

2) Daily water changes 50%-75% to keep amm. under control.

3) Feeding every other day about 6cc with a syringe filled with puree: worms, shrimp, clam, vitamins and garlic guard.

4) The only thing in her tank is the hob filter, heather & theromometer. This is a 10 gallon qt tank.

5) There is no longer any copper in the tank because I didn't know what I was doing and I didn't want to overdose or underdose.

Waiting to hear from you before I try this again. Thanks for your help.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 06:16:33 GMT

Sorry for the delay - my life is not the best at the present time.

edmlfc (4/11/2008)

How do I do a control test? This is my first time to treat anything with copper.

Add recommended copper to a measured volume of water ~ 1 gallon. Then test. If the copper test kit does not read - it is either wrong test kit, old/expired reagents, bad test kit. SeaChem has had multiple batches that were not reading copper at all!!

I added 16 drops of the Cupramine to the 10 gallon and when I tried to test for copper it did not show anything. I tried to test it again last night twice and still showed nothing with both test.

This morning I decided to add 1 drop of cupramine with just saltwater in the test tube to see if it would show anything. The API test kit shows the copper level at 1.0, the Instant ocean fastest only goes up to a .25 and the color was darker than the .25. The fastest may be old, it was the only other copper test kit that the store had and it had dust on the box. With no other choices I went ahead and purchased it. The api was purchased about a month ago from drsfostersmith.

Is there an expiration date anywhere on these??

The cupramine said to add 16 drops on the first day and then in 48 hours repeat. Final copper concentration should be a .5 mg/l.

Are there any porous materials in this tank - rock, substrate, carbon, etc?

Are you performing water changes ? If so, are you replacing the copper?

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:26:53 GMT

How do I do a control test? This is my first time to treat anything with copper.

I added 16 drops of the cupramine to the 10 gallon and when I tried to test for copper it did not show anything. I tried to test it again last night twice and still showed nothing with both test.

The cupramine said to add 16 drops on the first day and then in 48 hours repeat. Final copper concentration should be a .5 mg/l.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 05:50:01 GMT

Why do you say that?

Did you run a control test?

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 04:10:40 GMT

aquarium pharmaceuticals copper test kit

And I purchased a Fast test copper test kit by aquarium systems

To be honest with you I'm not sure either of them work.

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

Puffer Queen — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:39:11 GMT

Which test kit are you using?

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:48:12 GMT

Just checked my test kit online and it says :Measures both free and chelated copper

this means it's a good test right?

RE: Porcupine Puffer with Cloudy Eyes Need help

edmlfc — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:44:56 GMT

When I did the lr I used new water for each water change. I did not use water from the main tank. After adding it to the tank I checked the water daily for 30 days. Amm.0, Nitrite 0, Nitrates never over 10. It went to 10 a couple of days and I did a 50% water change to bring it back down to 5.

My water as of today in the main tank is:Ammo. 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 2.5, Ph 8.4, Sg 1.021, temp 79. I am searching for a larger sump or wet/dry to move my hob protein skimmer off the tank and into the sump or wet/dry to cut the temp down.

I'll check my copper test kit and make sure I have the right one, thanks. If not I will pick up another after work tonight.

Thanks for all your help. I sure hope she gets better soon.