Forums / TEAM Marine Depot / Disease, Health and Wellness - by Kelly Jedlicki / Puffer diet / Latest Posts

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 13:18:34 GMT

Kim,

Very sorry to hear of your loss.

You definitely gave it your all.

RE: Puffer diet

PorcPuff — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:42:10 GMT

Kim,

I'm sorry to hear of your puffer's passing... You tried your best anyway...
Being an aquarist, I hate times like this... Hope you'd be able to get another wonderful puffer soon if you'd like to continue to have a puffer...

Take care...

Anita

RE: Puffer diet

kim051172 — Sun, 14 Sep 2008 13:48:28 GMT

Unfortunately, we lost our puffer Friday night. We did Maracyn 2 for a few days and added B12 to his tank. Before we took him to the vet, his jaw was swollen. In fact, it was the vet that pointed it out to us - before the teeth trimming, so I don't think the teeth trimming had anything to do with it. He could move his jaw up and down a little and it was swollen, so the vet felt it was an infection rather than lockjaw. Regardless, I guess it doesn't matter much anymore. Thanks for your advice and help.

Kim

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 22:30:32 GMT

Terrific Anita!! Keep giving him good things to eat. I have found that frozen scallops and frozen squid rings I found at an oriental grocery are eaten very eagerly when offered.

RE: Puffer diet

PorcPuff — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 21:46:21 GMT

I almost forgot to say... I just want to thank Kelly, Joel, Laura, and all others who have contributed to this thread. The info and details that you posted here are very useful and they DID save a puffer's life... as well as an owner from heart-breaking. Thanks a million!

RE: Puffer diet

PorcPuff — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 21:42:09 GMT

Touch wood... now, I can say that my porcupine puffer, Buddy, has been cured of lockjaw. He accepted food normally in his own home tank today.. He ate a shrimp (cut-up for him)! I see that he can open his mouth / jaws freely... what a relief!

So, I tube-fed him for about 5 consecutive days... and tube-feeding DOES work for lockjaw! For anyone's puffers that have lockjaw.... I hope they'd try to save their fish by tube-feeding.

Anita

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 07:46:57 GMT

kim051172 (9/8/2008)

Sorry it's been so long. Work and school got in the way. Update on my puffer:

I don't remember the name of the vet, but I did have to drive over an hour to get there. Finding someone to work on puffer teeth is very difficult. We even tried the director of a local zoo that's building a large public aquarium to no avail. Anyway, he used MS222, which after reading these threads, made me feel somewhat comfortable. To be honest, I didn't ask if the teeth were cut or filed. They certainly look a lot better now.

Did the puffer ever eat after the trimming?

In your last post, you mentioned that the gums were swollen - was that before or after the trimming? Did the vet use a file, cutters, dremel to trim the teeth? Is there a gap or space/separation in the teeth?

Unfortunately, my puffer is not better. We did one round of penicillin and he still can't seem to completely close his mouth. He can close it some, but very little. He is still swimming around the tank some and still appears to have a somewhat healthy weight, but I'm sure that won't last since he won't eat. He even spits out food if it accidentally gets in his mouth

Tonight, we're starting a round of Maracyn Two. If anyone, though, has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. He's a cute, personable little guy. I never knew I'd do so much for a fish.

Kim

Penicillin is NOT the appropriate antibiotic for saltwater fish. Maracyn -2 (minocycline) is a good option. Nitrofurazone, Kanamycin & Enrofloxacin are other good options.

Have you tried adding B12 to the tank ?

What are your water parameters? What else is in with this puffer?

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 07:43:03 GMT

Puffer Queen (9/6/2008)

Anita,

Sorry to hear this .....I have left a message with the university and will advise as soon as I hear.

Since the lockjaw has just recently developed; there may be some chance of reversal with tube feedings. Not sure of any hobbyists in your area that can assist you with this.

Have you tried force feeding ?

Some hobbyists use clove oil for anesthesia - is that an option for you?

I have heard back from the fish vets from the university and they can still take puffers. Please anyone that is reading this forum and has a puffer that they are willing to have necropsy/vet exam - PLEASE contact me.

Thanks.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 07:41:28 GMT

PorcPuff (9/7/2008)

Congrats - I have been in your shoes and the relief after you have completed the first feeding is great.

I put Buddy in a small plastic tub (about 500ml)... shaken up 4 drops of clove bud oil in a pill bottle... it became kind of milky white... I poured the solution into Buddy's plastic tub. He began to slow down... swam on his side.. struggled two times... and became rather quiet... this all happened after about 2 to 3 mins the oil solution was poured in.

Would recommend testing the pH of the bath with the clove oil.

I took Buddy out of the water... I can't get his mouth to open... so, I used one side of a plastic tong to gently pry open his mouth... with the one leg of that tong stuck in his mouth, I inserted the tube (about 2.5 inch long) and injected all into his stomach. I found that there was no resistance in his insides when inserting the tube. After the tube feeding, I immediately put him back into his recovery tank of about 1 gallon of his own tank water. Joel, you're right... it was scary (for me)... he sank to the bottom of the bucket (right side up as if asleep)... didn't move... no visible breathing sign... after about 5 to 7 mins, I can see the gills moving slowly... then the fin on his back... slowly he begins to swim... it took about 20 mins for him to recover after the clove oil was administered to him... after he's swimming around in the bucket normally, I put him back into his home tank. He looks very normal now.

You should see gill movement immediately - this is a sign that the puffer is not breathing/receiving oxygen. If this happens again, I would recommend placing your hand under the puffer and gliding/guiding him back & forth in the tank for several minutes to improve the water flow across the gills and removing the clove oil.

I can't bear to see him wither and starve to death... and it was my fault that I fed him freeze dried krill as his main diet.... I'm about to throw out all the krills now. Krills should not even be sold as a food source to the aquarists!

Krill can be fed but only in combination with other foods. I feed krill every 7 - 10 days. The freeze dried krill is good to administer liquid vitamins.

When Buddy was recovering from the clove oil, for some time, I really thought that he was dead already. Absolutely no movement nor breathing signs... I was wondering if he'd be able to live to tell on this forum (I write for him)! Or was it the garden that I might be heading for him.... The whole process was some experience for me... and I began to appreciate even more about how it feels to be a vet / doctor. I've absolutely no medical background. I work in a bank.

Thank you Kelly, Joel, and everyone for the very valuable info. I hope Buddy is on his road to recovery.

More details to share with everyone about how to tube feed...
I used what I have on hand... I put the following into the slurry:

one whole periwrinkle (chopped up into mini pieces so that it can fit the tube)

0.5cm x 1cm piece of frozen shrimp (chopped into mini pieces as well)

flake food (Prime Reef) (sprinkle)
nori (sprinkle)
Selcon (2 drops)
Garlic Guard by Seachem (2 drops)
half of a vitamin B12 that I got from a drug store (half tablet: 1200mcg / tablet)

I fed about 1 ml to him (a 3-inch fish)

I used a 10ml syringe that I got for free from the drug store (it's supposed to be for human oral use)...

For tubing, I use one of those air tubing that one would attach to air pumps or air stones for aerating the tank... about 2.5inch long...

Initially, I had a very hard time getting the food slurry into the tube... it splattered everywhere... even on the wall and the window pane! What a mess...
After a while, I got more skillful and point the tubing and the syringe opening only into the yogurt cup that I was using to mix the food slurry... I used the syringe to suck in / load the food slurry into the tube... now the tube is all loaded with the food slurry... then I detach the tube from the syringe... wash the syringe and load the syringe up with tank water... I didn't want to inject air into Buddy's stomach.

Then I have a tubing loaded with food slurry... and a syringe all pulled back and loaded with tank water... I attach the tubing to the syringe... now, it's all ready to go... then I put Buddy into the small plastic container... put in the clove oil solution and proceed as I've written above.

I did some research on the net and found the following from Wikipedia:
For clove oil:
Bud oil is derived form the flower-buds of S.aromaticum. It consists of 60-90% eugenol, eugenyl acetate, caryophyllene and other minor constituents.

Leaf oil is derived from the leaves of S.aromaticum. It consists of 82-88% eugenol with little or no eugenyl acetate, and minor constituents.

Stem oil is derived from the twigs of S.aromaticum. It consists of 90-95% eugenol, with other minor constituents.

And as my current experience suggested, clove bud oil work as well as clove oil.

Please accept my apology if the above is rather unorganized...
I have just finished tube-feeding Buddy... and would like to share the above specifics with anyone else whose fish is having the same problem...

Although I don't know if this tube-feeding would save Buddy or not, I tried my best and it's worth trying. If anyone has a puffer with lockjaw, please do go the extra mile and try to save him/her by tube feeding. It's troublesome, but I think it might really save a puffer's life.

If anyone would like, I'll make a list of what you need for tube-feeding a puffer.
Everything that I used is available from daily life and LFS. I haven't checked any vet's office to ask for supplies....

Anita

THANKS Anita! All shared experiences, pics etc can only help other hobbyists and their puffers! Please keep us updated.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 07:34:51 GMT

jtesdall (9/7/2008)

I do not know about the pH with clove oil - I would recommend testing the pH of the clove oil bath before adding the puffer. The problem that has been encountered with clove oil is that it coats the gills and can cause a lack of oxygen.

Wait until he is mostly recovered and has stopped bumping into things before returning him him to his home. This is all to make sure he doesn't hurt himself or his tank mates can't hurt him. This was less than 20 minutes for me, maybe 10 to fifteen but he doesn't have tank mates that would hurt him. Only a docile Lionfish.

When did he stop eating? If it has been less than a week I would really try hard to get him to eat shrimp or scallops or something similar, although if you have feed only Krill for a year I am assuming he has this condition.

I have no idea how customs will deal with MS222. Maybe there is a supplier in Canada or you can call customs.

You put the puffer in the recovery tank to tube feed as to not over sedate and kill him and not to pollute your main tank. You have read in this thread I was actually able to tube feed my puffer in his tank without sedation after tubing and sedating twice. But mine is quite friendly and tame. About five times in his own tank and he recovered. Remember to wear new rubber kitchen gloves.

Please wait for Kelly to verify, correct or add to my suggestions before proceeding. But feel free to ask more and I will try to help.

Thanks for sharing - you are a great asset to this thread/forum.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 07:32:09 GMT

PorcPuff (9/7/2008)

Kelly and Joel,

Usually, how many days of tube feeding does it take for the puffer to be back to normal and eat on his/her own again?

It took weeks to months for this condition to develop so it may take weeks for it to improve.

Actually, to save myself from a heartbreak regarding Buddy, when I saw a 2-inch porcupine puffer on Friday, I just bought it and put it into the main tank with the other 4 fishes (ocellaris clown, convict damsel, yellow goby, and cleaner wrasse)... I worry that this 2-inch puffer would eventually attack / bite other tankmates... I want to put him in his own tank by himself... I think I need to put him in Buddy's current tank... but they might fight and hurt each other. (Buddy and Puffer <--the new 2-inch puffer)

What size tank is this?

Did you quarantine the new puffer before adding it to the display tank?

Buddy has always been staying by himself in another tank...

Is it best not to put 2 porcupine puffers together? Especially, if one is bigger than the other one...?

I heard that one would need at least a 120 gallon tank for a porcupine puffer. But even with a 120 gallon, you can't have 2 porcupine puffers living together in harmony, right? What do you think, Kelly? Joel?

A 120 gallon may house two while they are small but when they are adults - it will be too small with the other fish.

After curing Buddy, I think I better give him away to someone else who can give him a good home...

Anyone in the Greater Vancouver area (British Columbia, Canada) who would like a 3-inch porcupine puffer for free? After I've cured him...

It sounds like you care for this puffer and he already has a good home.

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 05:47:43 GMT

Wow, how long since he has eaten? It sounds like you need to try to start tube feeding to try and save him.

RE: Puffer diet

kim051172 — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 20:51:46 GMT

Sorry it's been so long. Work and school got in the way. Update on my puffer:

Tonight, we're starting a round of Maracyn Two. If anyone, though, has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. He's a cute, personable little guy. I never knew I'd do so much for a fish.

Kim

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Lover — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:50:40 GMT

What ever happened w/your puffer? What kind of vitamins did you feed it? Liquid? Sorry, if I sound ignorant but I'm still new at saltwater and am learning.

Puffer Lover

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 18:44:31 GMT

Anita, after curing Buddy I think he deserves to live with you forever.

Puffers are often in tanks together so I don't think this would be a problem, but I have never done it. Kelly will be able to answer this. I would be more worried about the new puffer eating his new tank mates, I am surprised he hasn't already.

Puffy took about 10 days tube fedding every other day or so then he ate a shrimp.

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 18:38:56 GMT

Laura, how is Giggles doing?

RE: Puffer diet

PorcPuff — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 18:35:38 GMT

Kelly and Joel,

Usually, how many days of tube feeding does it take for the puffer to be back to normal and eat on his/her own again?

Actually, to save myself from a heartbreak regarding Buddy, when I saw a 2-inch porcupine puffer on Friday, I just bought it and put it into the main tank with the other 4 fishes (ocellaris clown, convict damsel, yellow goby, and cleaner wrasse)... I worry that this 2-inch puffer would eventually attack / bite other tankmates... I want to put him in his own tank by himself... I think I need to put him in Buddy's current tank... but they might fight and hurt each other. (Buddy and Puffer <--the new 2-inch puffer)

Buddy has always been staying by himself in another tank...

Is it best not to put 2 porcupine puffers together? Especially, if one is bigger than the other one...?

I heard that one would need at least a 120 gallon tank for a porcupine puffer. But even with a 120 gallon, you can't have 2 porcupine puffers living together in harmony, right? What do you think, Kelly? Joel?

After curing Buddy, I think I better give him away to someone else who can give him a good home...

Anyone in the Greater Vancouver area (British Columbia, Canada) who would like a 3-inch porcupine puffer for free? After I've cured him...

Thanks!

Anita

RE: Puffer diet

PorcPuff — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 18:22:21 GMT

Kelly, Joel, Laura, and everyone,

I've done the tube-feeding on my porcupine puffer (Buddy) today! I was so nervous that I can feel my hands shaking a bit when inserting the tube into his mouth.
He took everything all in! Nothing came out at all... I understand that this's only the first feed... I still have a long way to go... Hopefully, he'll eat on his own again soon.

I put Buddy in a small plastic tub (about 500ml)... shaken up 4 drops of clove bud oil in a pill bottle... it became kind of milky white... I poured the solution into Buddy's plastic tub. He began to slow down... swam on his side.. struggled two times... and became rather quiet... this all happened after about 2 to 3 mins the oil solution was poured in.

I took Buddy out of the water... I can't get his mouth to open... so, I used one side of a plastic tong to gently pry open his mouth... with the one leg of that tong stuck in his mouth, I inserted the tube (about 2.5 inch long) and injected all into his stomach. I found that there was no resistance in his insides when inserting the tube. After the tube feeding, I immediately put him back into his recovery tank of about 1 gallon of his own tank water. Joel, you're right... it was scary (for me)... he sank to the bottom of the bucket (right side up as if asleep)... didn't move... no visible breathing sign... after about 5 to 7 mins, I can see the gills moving slowly... then the fin on his back... slowly he begins to swim... it took about 20 mins for him to recover after the clove oil was administered to him... after he's swimming around in the bucket normally, I put him back into his home tank. He looks very normal now.

I can't bear to see him wither and starve to death... and it was my fault that I fed him freeze dried krill as his main diet.... I'm about to throw out all the krills now. Krills should not even be sold as a food source to the aquarists!

When Buddy was recovering from the clove oil, for some time, I really thought that he was dead already. Absolutely no movement nor breathing signs... I was wondering if he'd be able to live to tell on this forum (I write for him)! Or was it the garden that I might be heading for him.... The whole process was some experience for me... and I began to appreciate even more about how it feels to be a vet / doctor. I've absolutely no medical background. I work in a bank.

Thank you Kelly, Joel, and everyone for the very valuable info. I hope Buddy is on his road to recovery.

More details to share with everyone about how to tube feed...
I used what I have on hand... I put the following into the slurry:

one whole periwrinkle (chopped up into mini pieces so that it can fit the tube)

0.5cm x 1cm piece of frozen shrimp (chopped into mini pieces as well)

flake food (Prime Reef) (sprinkle)
nori (sprinkle)
Selcon (2 drops)
Garlic Guard by Seachem (2 drops)
half of a vitamin B12 that I got from a drug store (half tablet: 1200mcg / tablet)

I fed about 1 ml to him (a 3-inch fish)

I used a 10ml syringe that I got for free from the drug store (it's supposed to be for human oral use)...

For tubing, I use one of those air tubing that one would attach to air pumps or air stones for aerating the tank... about 2.5inch long...

Initially, I had a very hard time getting the food slurry into the tube... it splattered everywhere... even on the wall and the window pane! What a mess...
After a while, I got more skillful and point the tubing and the syringe opening only into the yogurt cup that I was using to mix the food slurry... I used the syringe to suck in / load the food slurry into the tube... now the tube is all loaded with the food slurry... then I detach the tube from the syringe... wash the syringe and load the syringe up with tank water... I didn't want to inject air into Buddy's stomach.

Then I have a tubing loaded with food slurry... and a syringe all pulled back and loaded with tank water... I attach the tubing to the syringe... now, it's all ready to go... then I put Buddy into the small plastic container... put in the clove oil solution and proceed as I've written above.

I did some research on the net and found the following from Wikipedia:
For clove oil:
Bud oil is derived form the flower-buds of S.aromaticum. It consists of 60-90% eugenol, eugenyl acetate, caryophyllene and other minor constituents.

Leaf oil is derived from the leaves of S.aromaticum. It consists of 82-88% eugenol with little or no eugenyl acetate, and minor constituents.

Stem oil is derived from the twigs of S.aromaticum. It consists of 90-95% eugenol, with other minor constituents.

And as my current experience suggested, clove bud oil work as well as clove oil.

Please accept my apology if the above is rather unorganized...
I have just finished tube-feeding Buddy... and would like to share the above specifics with anyone else whose fish is having the same problem...

Although I don't know if this tube-feeding would save Buddy or not, I tried my best and it's worth trying. If anyone has a puffer with lockjaw, please do go the extra mile and try to save him/her by tube feeding. It's troublesome, but I think it might really save a puffer's life.

If anyone would like, I'll make a list of what you need for tube-feeding a puffer.
Everything that I used is available from daily life and LFS. I haven't checked any vet's office to ask for supplies....

Anita

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 12:14:53 GMT

Anita, I cannot tell you if Clove Bud oil is the same. I assume it is but really have no idea. I have also never used clove oil so cannot tell you anything about it, I used MS222. Here is an article that Kelly and Anthony Calfo wrote on trimming puffer teeth with either MS222 or clove oil. It has a dosage. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_2/cav2i1/puffer_dentistry/puffer2.htm

Please read this thread from start to finish. I think some of your questions will be answered there. Also, I want say that I am only a saltwater and reef hobbyist with about 8 years of experience and 25 years in fresh water. Kelly is the real professional. I did successfully save my puffer and he is doing great and just started eating squid rings last night. But I also am guilty of causing the condition by only feeding Krill and created the condition in the first place. I still beat myself up over it. Although the tube feeding did make puffy more tame than ever. He is our favorite.

OK some answers as best as I can:

Put the slurry of food in the syringe and then attach the tubing. Insert the tubing to a place just past the gills. I have posted an exact size of veterinarian tubing earlier in this thread that you should able to get from any vet. He can also make sure you have a syringe that fits the tubing. But he will give you bit of a strange look when you tell him what you are doing.

Yes, to buffer and aeration. Make sure the temp and pH do not change drastically to reduce shock, I used a small heater. The buffer may not be as important for clove oil, Kelly will have to answer this. MS222 lowers the pH so I used baking soda to buffer the water.

Wait until he is mostly recovered and has stopped bumping into things before returning him him to his home. This is all to make sure he doesn't hurt himself or his tank mates can't hurt him. This was less than 20 minutes for me, maybe 10 to fifteen but he doesn't have tank mates that would hurt him. Only a docile Lionfish.

When did he stop eating? If it has been less than a week I would really try hard to get him to eat shrimp or scallops or something similar, although if you have feed only Krill for a year I am assuming he has this condition.

I have no idea how customs will deal with MS222. Maybe there is a supplier in Canada or you can call customs.

You put the puffer in the recovery tank to tube feed as to not over sedate and kill him and not to pollute your main tank. You have read in this thread I was actually able to tube feed my puffer in his tank without sedation after tubing and sedating twice. But mine is quite friendly and tame. About five times in his own tank and he recovered. Remember to wear new rubber kitchen gloves.

Please wait for Kelly to verify, correct or add to my suggestions before proceeding. But feel free to ask more and I will try to help.

RE: Puffer diet

PorcPuff — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 23:12:55 GMT

More questions regarding how to do tube feeding....

my question is how much clove oil to use... what to expect during the process...

I heard that clove oil can have side effects? What would that be?

put him in one small container with the clove oil and home tank water...
once under, tube feed him in the same container?

Do I stuff the food slurry into the tube and then fill the syringe with tank water to push the food slurry through?

Once tube-fed, put him in the recovery container which is aerated and contains a marine buffer...?

leave him in the recovery bay for 20mins (monitoring beside him of course)... then put him back in his home tank?

Thank you so much... any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Anita

RE: Puffer diet

PorcPuff — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 16:01:09 GMT

Kelly or anyone who already has experience in this process of curing a puffer from lockjaw,

Please kindly give me some specific directions so that I can try and save this puffer... he's 3 inch long... I don't know how much he weights... how much clove oil do I use? Anything that I should watch for? Any drawbacks or side effects on the puffer? Do I put the puffer in (say a 4 litre ice-cream bucket) the container and drop the clove oil in? Then would it slow down, go belly up... or ??? and then I should force feed it? I have a 3 cc syringe (without the needle of course)... do I just attach a tubing that fits the mouth of this syringe? And put the food in the tubing... using the syringe to force the food slurry into its mouth? And the tubing should be long enough to pass its gills? Then I should put it in another bucket of saltwater (from its home tank) for recovery? marine buffer and aeration needed for the recovery bucket, right? Then how long should I wait before putting it back into the home tank?

I can only find "clove bud essential oil".... is that the same as clove oil? On the label, it says it only contains the oil itself with no other additive. To get MS-222, it'll take at least a week. I'm in Canada (Vancouver, BC)... and I don't know if Canada Customs would let me import MS-222.... and I wonder if I'd be able to ship the fish out from Canada to USA in case I need to do that... anyone knows?

I know that for food I'm supposed to give it as a slurry mixture of the following:
shrimp, green pea babyfood, selcon, garlic, vitamin B12 tablet melted, prime reef flake food, nori, mysis

I've read this thread as well as some other thread in this forum... I've gathered some info... but if anyone could write up a step-by-step direction on how to force feed a puffer, that'd be great... such as from putting it under to putting it back to its home tank... and the specifics of how much to use on the medication, water parameters... buffer needed...?

Please accept my apology if this is repetitive or sound incoherent... I'm quite confused as to what to do... I want to help him... but feel rather helpless...

Thanks for any info, Kelly and everyone...

Kelly, yes, please do help me find out the specifics on how to and where to ship the puffer in case the inevitable happens...

Thanks again.

Anita

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 05:31:29 GMT

Anita,

Sorry to hear this .....I have left a message with the university and will advise as soon as I hear.

Since the lockjaw has just recently developed; there may be some chance of reversal with tube feedings. Not sure of any hobbyists in your area that can assist you with this.

Have you tried force feeding ?

Some hobbyists use clove oil for anesthesia - is that an option for you?

RE: Puffer diet

PorcPuff — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 21:29:39 GMT

Kelly,

I've a porcupine puffer (3 inches long) that has lockjaw starting Sept 01, 2008. Guiltily, I've been relying on freeze dried krill as his main diet. I regret it but it seems to be too late now. I don't have the expertise nor the medication (finquel) to cure him. Is the university still interested in researching lockjaw in puffers? Would you please tell me the details regarding sending this fish to the research facility? He's still very much alive and swimming... but I can't get him to open his mouth. I had him for about a year... 0 ammonium, 0 nitrite, some nitrate such as 10...?

If anyone is interested in helping, please feel free to have him... you can keep him even after you've cured him...

I feel very bad that I've led him to his doom....

Please let me know what should I do...

BTW, I'm in Vancouver, BC, Canada...

Anita

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 19:24:11 GMT

What aquatic vet did the trimming? Did he use anesthesia? Did he cut or file the teeth?

Did the vet comment on the gum swelling? Was the swelling there before the dental? Did he recommend treatment? Swollen gums can be painful and thus prevent eating. I have seen this before - often seen if the dental plate has been cracked or split or if a piece of food penetrated the gum line.

RE: Puffer diet

kim051172 — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:32:50 GMT

I forgot to add - he also tested our water. He said everything was fine. We do 20% water changes once a month unless our tests indicate an earlier change is needed. We test our water weekly. With three aquariums, it can be a lot of work, but we haven't lost any fish in over a year and have had several for a few years. Of course, like with our puffer over the last few days, I'm always finding that I still have a lot to learn.

Kim

RE: Puffer diet

kim051172 — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:24:55 GMT

You're right - it is something else going on. We got his teeth trimmed - they were too long, although the vet doesn't think that's what is making him not eat. Our puffer actually got a pretty clean bill of health. He appears well-nourished, has good body shape, is alert, and his eyes are clear. The only thing that was noted was a slight swelling around his jaw, which may be an infection. He is still able to open and close his jaw now that his teeth are trimmed so lockjaw was pretty much ruled out.

We've brought him back home and he appears to be doing well so far, although we haven't tried feeding him yet. We also got some Selcon to soak his food in. If he doesn't appear to be eating after a couple of days, then we're supposed to give him a penicillin bath once a day for 4 - 6 days.

At this point, I feel like we've dodged a bullet. While we do feed him a varied diet, he still did get a lot of krill. No more. My husband threw it out and we're going to get some more food from the grocery store.

Thanks again.

Kim

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 13:50:56 GMT

Hi Kim,

It sounds like you have something else going than we did if you have been feeding a varied diet for a long time. Not to ignore the obvious .... how are the water parameters (Temp, pH, Ammonia, NO3, NO2. etc.)? How often do you do water changes? You know the basic aquarium husbandry stuff.

Other than that I am sure Kelly can often some advice.

Joel

RE: Puffer diet

kim051172 — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 12:46:45 GMT

I am grateful to see this thread. I've had a dogface puffer for about a year now. He does get krill to eat (I was told by the place where I bought him that it was OK); however, after reading up on saltwater fish, I knew a varied diet was best. Because of that, he got frozen krill a few times a week and on other days, he got frozen, shell-on shrimp, crab legs, and mussels - all of which he ate just fine.

A couple of days ago, my husband and I noticed he had stopped eating. At first, we thought that perhaps his teeth had just gotten too large and needed trimmed. After really watching him yesterday and today, though, I'm concerned that it may be lockjaw instead. There is a little space still between his upper and lower teeth, but it seems like he can't open any further. Sometimes he pulls his lips way back, but still nothing happens.

We have an appointment this afternoon with an aquatic vet. I'm hoping he just needs a trim, but am not optimistic. At least it sounds like we can try tube feeding. My husband and I both agree that if he is going to die, at least he won't die without us trying to save him.

Kim

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:39:01 GMT

HOORAY for Puffy and Giggles !!!

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:27:01 GMT

I will !

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:33:27 GMT

Terrific, more great news! It is very cool to hear how similar these animals act. My puffer reacted the same way, with an attitude. "I will try this but I'm not gonna like it!" and then spit it out. Then the next time "Hey thats pretty good" as the water surface erupts into a small volcano.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 05:21:03 GMT

topdogofca (7/17/2008)

Hi Kelly! Well if you read my post to Joel you know that Giggles ate squid and raw shrimp today! He's active and animated and begging for food. You guys helped me save his life and I actually get choked up thinking of how sick he was. The idea of tube feeding him was so scary at first but I knew it was that or death. And it really wasn't that hard at all. I couldn't have done it without you and Joel. Anyone out there in the same situation don't be afraid. You CAN do it and we're all here to help.

Yeh!!! Thanks for the update and for sharing. Hopefully this will encourage others in this same situation!

Please keep us updated.

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 00:48:34 GMT

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 00:25:19 GMT

More good news today Joel ! I mixed up a batch of food for the other fish and Giggles grabbed a piece of sqid and ate it . Not being his favorite he spit out the second piece. While the rest of the gang gobbled everything up he swam over to me like,"ok where's MINE?" I had a nice raw shrimp thawing out just for him. I soaked it in Garlic Guard and Vita Chem (fish's Shrimp Scampi ! ha!) I tried tempting him with it but he turned it down. Everyone else thought it was great ! about an hour later I defrosted and "marinated" another one and he went for it like it the best thing he ever tasted! Sucess! He's doing great! His entire personality is back to normal and he's back to flirting with me and all the clients. I can't thank you and Kelly enough. I hope others have the same sucess we did.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:04:14 GMT

jtesdall (7/16/2008)

Laura,

That is awesome! I am very excited for you because I know the exact feeling, the rush that comes when he eats Krill or not. Do what you say, be strong and no more Krill. Both the bait and switch and food coloring worked surprisingly well. Although if your puffer has as much personality as ours you see him call you every name in the book when you do it. Keep giving us updates, I am very happy I could help.

Joel

Kelly, maybe we are actually on to something here. It would be great if maybe this is actually reversible. I know this is only two for now (there do seem to be 1 or two others), but lets keep our fingers crossed!

Joel,

I hope this thread will get other hobbyists to share their experiences as well.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:02:57 GMT

topdogofca (7/15/2008)

WONDERFUL news! Giggles ate completely on his own today! I'm very happy and cautiously optimistic. Now comes the the battle to get him to eat something besides Krill. And yes it was Krill that he ate today. I put some in along with clams and squid for the OTHER fish never expecting him to take any of it and BAM! he scarffed it down. Now that I know he is able to eat on his own NOBODY gets anymore Krill untill he is eating other foods. I bought some raw frozen shrimp today and I will try to tempt him with that and just keep trying different things. If I have to I'll tube feed him again but he's not getting any more Krill. Thank you so much for your help! I truely appreciate it and I will keep you updated.

Great news! Thanks for the updates and sharing. This hopefully will educate other hobbyists to prevent this condition and help those that are experiencing this horrible condition.

I hope this thread will have others that will contribute their experiences as well.

Definitely hold off of the krill for the time being.

Please keep us updated.

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:45:33 GMT

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:33:09 GMT

I'm so excited ! If you read my post to Kelly you know that Giggles ate completely on his own today after only 4 tube feedings over 6 days along with his daily Reiki treatments. I'm so grateful for your help. I'm sure I would have lost him and now I feel there is hope for his recovery. I'm going to try your raw shrimp treatment (complete with food coloring if I have to) and I'l even try the old "bait and switch" routine that you used !!! thanks jtesdall, I'll keep you posted

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:17:48 GMT

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:23:26 GMT

After about two weeks he was taking about 6 ML without any regurgitation in his own tank with no sedation. I always offered shrimp everyday to get him interested in feeding normally. He increasingly started showing more interest and would bite the shrimp and spit it out. So I decided to let him go 2-3 days to get him real hungry. I even tried using food coloring to color the shrimp orange like Krill, this seemed to work although it may have been a coincidence. But he started to eat shrimp. I would buy whole uncooked shell on shrimp at the store and cut it into three pieces. He got to eating this very well so obviously I quit tube feeding. I did not document as I should have but thi8s whole process took about three weeks. Actually the posts in this forum would document it very well as I posted when when I started tube feeding and when he started to eat.

Puffy never showed sign of being very afraid when we had our hands in the aquarium. He has always come out to see us when we came over to the tank. So we have always "pet" him although you aren't supposed to. Because of this he was already pretty tame. We really didn't like the effects of the MS222 since after a day you could still tell he wasn't "right". So I decided I was going to feed him right in the tank after about the fifth sedation. I just put my gloved hand in tank for awhile and went very slowly. I started by first just letting him lay in my hand and then wrapping my hand around him loosely. Then I started to hold him tight enough to restrain him and he puffed but only for a few seconds and then deflated. He didn't struggle much at all so I was easily able to push the feeding tube in for about another week and a half every other day. It really worked very well.